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Do you feel as though your live is pre-determined and fated or that you have the ability to change your destiny?
Listen to our lively discussion on consciously creating your life and why it feels as if you are stuck in fate rather than living out your potential.

  • What is Destiny?
  • What is Fate?
  • How can we escape a pre-determined fate and create our own life consciously?

Based on Jungian Psychology, Eastern Wisdom traditions and a little neuroscience, we explain the philosophy of how we can choose to live without being victim to a fated existence.

Podcast Episode 13: Destiny, Fate, and Choice to Create Your Life


Debra Maldonado 00:03

Welcome to Creative Mind Living, a podcast for personal growth based on the works of Carl Jung neuroscience and Eastern philosophies. We’re your hosts Debra Berndt Maldonado, and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of Creative Mind Coaching.

Robert Maldonado 00:19

All right.

Debra Maldonado 00:23

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Creative Love, Creative Mind Coaching. And I am Debra Berndt Maldonado.

Robert Maldonado 00:31

I’m Dr. Robert Maldonado. And today we’re gonna talk about something of interest for both of us and hopefully for you. The topic of fate.

Debra Maldonado 00:45

Yes. There’s a lot of people ask us, you know, they do work, they work on themselves or removing their blocks to love or success or money and or like health, you know, trying to be healthier, and they’re thinking well is, you know, am I stuck in a fate? A lot of people ask me, am I destined to be alone? Am I destined to not be successful? And you know, you know a lot you know a lot of you hear so many different things from religion from spiritual teachings of what fate is what’s destiny? And do we have freewill? Do we have a choice in? Or is it God’s will? And what does that mean? And so we’re going to talk about all of that today, and try to get it all in. And I’m sure we’ll have to have another another one because it is such a great it’s almost like the way we have to really the foundation of how we see our lives. Yeah.

Robert Maldonado 01:42

And before we get going, I wanted to just mention something.These are definitely epic times that we’re living in. Yeah. And I read recently that one of the number one search type topics on Google was how to pray. So, this is not a prayer, but I love it because it comes from very ancient tradition of the Upanishads. It’s, it’s more of an intention. So the intention goes something like this. May the spirit lead us from the Unreal to the real. From darkness, to light and from death to immortality. That’s really the intention to, to move from our own projections or own illusions and being caught up in shadow. To understand the the fun date the foundations of reality, the absolute reality. The other piece is the darkness to light.

Debra Maldonado 02:57


Robert Maldonado 02:58

Light is simply higher knowledge higher understanding insight.

Debra Maldonado 03:02

So yeah, I was going to say the darkness A lot of people think it’s our darker selves or negative, something negative, but darkness just means unconscious. It’s in the dark. And so when we look at what’s going on in the world and people that are mistreating other people, racism is definitely an unconscious, it’s a, it’s passed down, it’s taught and it’s ignorance. It’s not, I mean, it comes across as evil, you know, we can perceive it as evil, but it really is ignorance of the light. And so the more so fighting it with hate is just adding to it. So we have to hold as spiritual seekers that we all are, is to hold up is really the bearers of the light, not to ignore the dark and not to push it away and not to be like, well, I’m spiritual. So that doesn’t apply to me. But it’s almost like we have to hold the light and be a force in the world to hold it.

Robert Maldonado 03:59

And then the last part is from death to immortality, which really means from seeing ourselves as only biological beings in this limited body, to understanding ourselves in the divine context, right of spiritual being having a human experience. So that’s the intention.

Debra Maldonado 04:24

So that’s the intention of our talk today to is that we’re where we want to bring. We want to bring light to the darkness, to the fears to the unconscious. Things that we don’t want to create in our life, why does it happen? And how can you know do we have power to change it? That’s the question for today. And then we also have a special announcement at the end. For some a new retreat we’re doing, and I hope you stay tuned because it’s going to be amazing and you want to be a part of it, possibly. So we’re going to talk about three things. We’re going to talk about destiny We’re going to talk about fate. And we’re going to talk about choice. And we’re going to use some of Carl Jung’s teachings around that, like what he said about it. And actually Eastern philosophy in the Upanishads. And how they actually go together. They’re kind of blend they kind of had the same ideas. And so I think it’s a beautiful way to talk about it. So I think the first thing we need to do is we need to define these terms because a lot of people confuse destiny and fate. So do we want to start with destiny and or do?

Robert Maldonado 05:35

I don’t have a good definition for it? So you start us off.

Debra Maldonado 05:39

So, Carl Jung says that what is it in the end that induces a man to go on his own way and to rise out of unconscious identity with a mass as out of a swathing mist, it’s what common is commonly called a vocation. And he said it’s an irrational factor that destined for a man to emancipate himself from the herd. And from its well worn paths, so it’s individuation. true personality is always a vocation, and puts its trust in its God, despite its being as an ordinary man would say, only a personal feeling. But vocation acts like the law of God, which there is no mistake. And he says that he often finds among his patients when he was working with them, because of their spiritual and social gifts are quite specifically called to take an active part in the work of civilization. And that is their biological destiny. So when we think of destiny, I’m actually getting goosebumps from that again. It’s really the destiny is really aren’t the big picture. And one person said, it’s kind of Like we’re on a boat and the Buddha has a destination it comes from the Latin word Destin, which is destiny we were destination comes from. And it’s really the end goal of life. It’s the big picture. So what are we here to do? On a big level? What is our purpose and young thought of it as our spiritual and gifts that we have that we were born with that are biological in a way that were pre kind of like, they’re in us like that comes natural for us. So if you’re an artist, if you’re someone like for me wanting to help, or I love to write writing is my destiny, your destiny, you you were drawn to art, but you were also drawn to psychology and, and so Carl Jung felt like his destiny was to be a spiritual psychologist, because he, his great grandfather actually was a psychologist and his father was a pastor. So there’s all these

Robert Maldonado 07:52

I think his great grandfather was a physician.

Debra Maldonado 07:55

Physician, yeah, but he was studying the mind and so there was kind of like a biologic. Destiny he had, and but it’s really a bigger picture. And and so when we think of destiny Just think of it is like, oh, you’re not destined to be alone. I’m not destined to be poor, but destiny is what is the purpose of my life? What am I here to contribute to civilization? You know we have even though Maya is unreal in a way, it’s still all we have to create it. And so what is the big picture like what is our purpose in life? Yeah. And so do you want to add to that?

Robert Maldonado 08:32

Yeah, I mean, I see of the concept of Dharma, in the original punish shots, not the in Buddhism that Dharma becomes the Buddhist teachings. But in, in the older tradition, an individual’s Dharma is your sacred duty. You’re calling it an essence what you described there, your destiny and a person can follow their Dharma, in essence and develop themselves continuously, through higher knowledge through yoga through meditation, to express their Dharma in as much a perfect way as they can, or they can ignore it. And

Debra Maldonado 09:20

that’s when a person falls into the karmic wheel essentially of playing out based on their environment, you know, their their actions and their conditioning. So you see someone who had a failed long family of lawyers, and then they’re forced to kind of like his expectation become a lawyer. And then the look, that person kind of breaks that from that their destiny isn’t to be a lawyer, their destiny is to be an artist or a singer or something else. And we so here’s the thing, the ultimate goal is to find know who we are on a deep level and realize the self realized God in our life and divine in our life. That’s the big goal. And then the destiny the gifts and talents are a way for us to act in the world. And it’s like God’s gave us a gift or the divine has a gift. And we all have different ones. We’re all like, it’s like biologically the divine has divvied it up. So we all have a unique way to express ourselves. So it’s a beautiful, so think about destiny as a big picture. Like, it’s where the ship is taking us. And for me, and I want to share this story. I didn’t tell you I was gonna mention this, but I was thinking about this before I talked this morning while I was getting ready. And I was thinking about where I am now. And destiny is always there with us. Like we always have a knowing in ourselves, and, and if you look back, it’s almost like people will come into your life to show you the path. So when I was really little, I was my aunt Norma. I love my aunt Norma. She and I were like kindred spirits. I mean, there was some special bond between us. And every birthday. She would always give me these mystical gifts like she gave me my first set of tarot cards. She gave me a Ouija board which my mother freaked out and maybe throw away because she thought it was the devil. But she would give me these like cool things that were like about psychology about spirit, like alternate spirituality. And so I feel like she planted the seed for that mystical part of me. And then my aunt Doris, my mother’s other sister, gave me a typewriter. I was nine years old, and she gave me a typewriter. And she gave me pieces of recycled paper from her office that they couldn’t didn’t have recycling back then it was the 70s. And I would sit there and I would write my story. So I feel like my two aunts already lead, like intuitively stepped in. And then I was around a lot of people that ended up teaching me about like, I just noticed, like people came to me for help and advice, and I love psychology. And so all the things I read about being single and why I was single, and I was just so excited about personal development. And I always said to myself, I just wish I could Do this like it was something that felt natural to me. And I look back and now I wrote my book, I have the spiritual knowledge. And then I also get to share my gifts. And so I feel like my destiny has always been there. But I resisted it. I resisted it so many times because my ego wanted security, it wanted the steady paycheck. And I fell into that default mode of being getting a job and doing like what my family said, you get a job, you don’t do your what you love. And I got laid off like five or six times in like, within five or six years, like every year I would get laid off from my job, the company would fall apart. And it was always like, I would try to do something on my own. And it was like, try and try and then give up and go back. But it was always this calling, you know, it’s like that. It was it’s, it’s not a voice. It’s more of a sense, more than an emotion. And so do you feel that way to like about your life and

Robert Maldonado 12:56

Yeah, I mean, what you’re saying reminds me of This idea that no one is an island. Yes, we none of us appeared just kind of self made or, you know, just kind of without our history, our families, our cultures or, you know, ancient history all play into who we are. And we know now, genetics plays a big role in who we become.

Debra Maldonado 13:27

What we our talents is, like, if you’re musically inclined, it would be in your DNA.

Robert Maldonado 13:31

Absolutely. And now epigenetics, which is even kind of a more interesting concept, in that we see that historical events get encoded into into the genes. And, and we end up playing those out. And often we think we’re inventing new things or that we, we’ve made ourselves somehow but it It’s coming from a long line of many, many people, many, many generations, people experiencing history in their own way and interpreting it in their own way through culture. So it’s a, it’s an incredible thing to think about. Now from the Jungian perspective, we, you know, he does talk about individuation is freeing ourselves from the herd mentality, in essence from our biological inheritance. Because our biologic our biology essentially promises to fit in to be a part of the herd to cooperate. And, you know, I’ve been looking at the literature on emotions recently. Our brains are really designed to tune into each other and to coordinate our brainwaves essentially will coordinate the more in tune the more attention we pay to to each other, and so that there is a lot of that, you know, kind of the scientific evidence is is supporting what you own kind of saw from his own experimentation and philosophy. But in my own practice, or let’s say in my own life, when I look at my ancestors, yeah, I see the trends. There are people that were interested in philosophy boy interested in music and art in business. And so, you and we inherit all those genes, but in different combinations.

Debra Maldonado 15:40


Robert Maldonado 15:41

Then it’s up to us and up to the individual to, to do something with it right to, to cultivate it. It’s like we get the seeds. And now we have to plant the seeds and cultivate them and bring them to fruition.

Debra Maldonado 15:59

It’s almost like it’s our duty to express them. And I think of my grandmother, we talk about death, you know, Destiny, she was, you know, grew up in the depression, she had 11 children, lost two children, very young. Her husband, you know, was disabled, she had just so much bear, you know, on her. And she was the president of the Democratic women’s society in back in the, you know, 40s for 40 years. And she used to do a lot of work in social change and helping others and she had, she didn’t have anything for herself, and she would constantly give and, you know, I feel like I have that in my DNA, that kind of service so you know, the call to a service, and we all have that, you know, we all have people in our lives in our ancestry, but that program, our human, you know, fears and all those things, but look back your ancestors and think, who inspired me like when you’re someone talked about someone in your past Like, oh, you know, great grandmother may you know she did all these things and we have that in our, in our ourselves and then the people around us and, you know, I see some people you see with musical talents, you know, their kids, one of our clients is a musician and their child is now doing the music. And it’s like that’s in our DNA, it’s part of her and she should express it and so but in society we were the herd mentality is you shouldn’t be an individual, you shouldn’t express your, your, you should just do your work, you know, you have to, like, get a job, be responsible. And a lot of times our family discourages us from doing what we love. I see this now too. I see a lot of people to their parents tell me that even the school system is when they would, you know, write what they want to do. The school system would be like, No, that doesn’t fit into our categories of teacher lawyer, you know, scientist, you can’t be an artist like they they don’t even think that that’s that’s a viable occupation, and then artists goes out and they say I want to be an artist. And the whole world is telling them you can’t make money doing that. You can’t make money singing you can’t make money expressing yourself. You can’t make money writing, you know, the starving artists. And then even in coaching people say, Oh, you know, you’re you’re gonna, you know, help others but you’re just gonna be a social worker and take little teachers who says that?

Robert Maldonado 18:26

A lot of people I’ve never heard that one Really?

Debra Maldonado 18:28

Yeah, well, a lot of people feel guilty about taking money for service and, and so a lot of what interferes with us in our full expression is that herd mentality and our personal experience our personal history, which is now what leads us to fate. So destiny is the big ship or taking a ship. We we have all these ingrained biological vocation as Jung would say, our duty our sacred duty are spiritual and social gifts that we have in present And on the ship. A lot of stuff happens between the time we’re born and the time

Robert Maldonado 19:05

Hopefully we were not on the Titanic.

Debra Maldonado 19:07

Yes, hopefully we’re deciding. And so what happens on the ship is our fate. So there’s different things that happen along the way in our journey in life. And that is what fate is we’re what we consider if think about fate as being the little things along the way, not the long distance. All right, right. So the steps. So in Eastern philosophy, it’s called karma. And, and fate is what we unconsciously live out if we aren’t conscious of it. So let’s talk about that.

Robert Maldonado 19:41

Yeah, that’s a good way to frame it. And that we know karma is a powerful force. And I would say that behaviorism and conditioning is a modern way of understanding aspects of karma. We know every action we take has a conditioning impact on us operant conditioning, and it has to do with the results that we get from the action, what feedback we get from it. And even biologically, we know, neuroscience shows us that our brain evolved by kind of pushing out into the world, and then seeing what pushes back. And, you know, those forces, shaped our behavior shaped our brain shape, the way we see the world. And the way we experience it in a very powerful way.

Debra Maldonado 20:38

Jung called them the opposite. Fate is the opposite of that. Pleasure, pain. You know, they kind of good or bad, pleasant, unpleasant.

Robert Maldonado 20:48

Yeah. So at the individual level, every action we take then gives us that positive or negative, but that positive or negative is an interpretation that yes, is it beneficial for my service? Bible or not. And so there’s kind of this blind force going on from from the time that we’re born. Because every action we take has that that conditioning karmic effect on us. So by the time we know it, we’re not really acting out of freewill. As a lot of people think, you know, I’m making these choices. But if you really study human nature and human behavior, it’s very conditioned. It’s based on past experiences, and the rewards and punishments that we got from the environment.

Debra Maldonado 21:35

And that’s what we call our comfort zone. It’s that real that even though it’s not always comfortable, it’s what we’re familiar with. And it’s kind of we know how to deal with something. And the fear of the ego is always dealing with the unknown. It does. It fears, the unknown, and I think because when we were cavemen and there was another tribe, we weren’t familiar with them. We didn’t know how to react to them. We would have a fear because they could kill us. They could be a hero or not. And so when we don’t have a past experience it automatically on a biological level creates fear. Yeah. Like you say, with the kids with their parents, when a stranger comes, the child would look up at the parent to see if it’s okay to interact with the stranger.

Robert Maldonado 22:18

Yeah, a lot of it is certainly transmitted unconsciously, from the people around us and the culture, what is appropriate in the culture. And we just kind of sense that because we’re sensing beings. And and the more I learn about emotions, the more I see that it is more of a feeling that we have about what is right and wrong, instead of a cognitive decision that we’re making.

Debra Maldonado 22:43

So emotionally, we’re it’s really triggered by emotions.

Robert Maldonado 22:47

Yeah, we’re absorbing all this information emotionally, as we’re growing up and throughout our life. But in essence, the important point is, is that we’re not really conscious. And so we’re, we’re acting out of that karmic past, out of that conditioning, which means now this, this is the implication that if we exchange roles with anybody on the planet, we would essentially play out their karmic role. Right? That’s why compassion is really the answer, because everyone is acting from that conditioning past there is Yeah, they’re not really making those choices for themselves. When you understand that, then you’re not as triggered or as angry by people’s actions because you understand. They’re playing out their karma, in essence.

Debra Maldonado 23:44

It doesn’t mean that you let them walk all over you or be a doormat and say, well, it’s their ignorance. So I’m just gonna forgive everybody, you know, you keep your boundaries you established, you know, kind of take the steps but with that understanding that they’re not they’re not intentionally trying to harm you. And I think that’s where this kind of feel the judgment is the intent to harm. Yeah, they’re not intending to harm.

Robert Maldonado 24:09

Yeah. So so the question then and and this throws into question, of course, the the whole idea of culpability and criminal law, and Oh, yeah. And, you know, if you think about your own life, the choices that you’ve made, you look back. And if you understand these principles, they were operating in your life and all those early choices that you made those mistakes and those tribes, they were all really part of that karmic conditioning. You’re playing out your karma. The question is, are can we free ourselves from that? Yes, can we live choice?

Debra Maldonado 24:44

So fate is your unconscious conditioning. From early on in life, that you playing, you’re playing out and reacting and responding to from the past, conditioning, not from a free choice, you’re just like, you automatically do Things like for me, I will always automatically be the pleaser. It’s like a compulsion in mind because of my mother was a very like, sweet, pleasing woman. And so I have a tendency to lean toward that. But I have to be conscious of, am I really why I’m doing it? What’s the pattern, and that’s the the, the, the freedom is to understand your you get caught up in that pattern. And here’s the thing. I think a lot of people think once you identify the pattern, it just stops. But actually it keeps challenging you and you just learn another way and eventually you create a new groove. But you know, it’s almost like the fate is like the well worn road. I think there’s a quote in here. No, that’s not it. There’s a well worn road that creates the fate and it’s like kind of the that kind of I heard it once when I was doing hypnotherapy. It’s like when you take a sled in the winter and you go down a hill It makes a groove and you like that groove. It feels really good. And then when you go to go to the New Groove, it’s like stuck, you’re not really flowing and you want to go back to the easy. And so that’s fade. It’s like it kind of always the egos always trying to drive us to it. And before we get into choice, I think one of the big things to think about is it if we look at fate, the ordinary person sees fate as either a blessing or a curse. It sees it in like young says the opposites, the duality. And the wife sees things as an opportunity. And so if we want to live out our fate, I mean, escape our fate. Have that been was pre conditioned or conditioned by us in our choices early on. We have to be willing to look at the resistance or what’s showing up, not as in that prejudgment. It’s almost like when we prejudge it, we reinforce it and it’s slowing down that judgment process. of this is A blessing or a curse, and saying this is an opportunity. This is opportunity. Now I’m seeing my fate. And I just want to give you an example, say, you are trying to meet the love of your life you’re dating, and it keeps showing up as the man breaks up with me, nothing ever works out. And you can believe that that was a curse. But what you’re actually living seeing is your fate. And there’s a part of that, once if you can make it conscious, then you can change it. But if you keep saying, oh, that, you know, I must be cursed, and it’s bad in the resistance and in the bad luck is the key for freedom. And I think if we can approach it that way, that would be a difference. And you always say that if we the ordinary man sees everything as a blessing or a curse. Yes, it’s that duality, judging it keeps us the duality keeps us in our past fate, past karma and seeing things without judgment and non attachment frees us.

Robert Maldonado 28:00

Yeah, so and, and in a sense, a lot of people feel that it’s easier to just let the karmic past play out.

Debra Maldonado 28:10

And hand it over to, like, it’s

Robert Maldonado 28:12

Yeah. I think if it’s fatal, then let it have it.

Debra Maldonado 28:14

Its God’s will.

Robert Maldonado 28:15

Right. But you see that it, it causes a lot of suffering, living in darkness, meaning not not seeing the the absolute reality of things, and just kind of going along with a karmic flow. It causes a lot of suffering a lot. Not only in yourself, but in others around you. And so, we should all strive to free our mind. Now it is difficult, and a lot of people complain, they say, you know, I see other people have it easier, they’re just kind of going along with the flow and their life seems to be easier than my having to do my internal work and, and self reflect and really work through things but that’s just an illusion. Nobody has it easy. Anybody that plays out their karma, they’re leaving it up to chance basically to their past history, their their epigenetics and all their their ancestral past. social pressure. Yeah to determine their life. They’re they’re just

Debra Maldonado 29:19

A limitation.

Robert Maldonado 29:19

Yeah. And if you understand what’s at stake, it’s really not a choice. individuation meaning self reflection. The the unexamined life is not worth living like Socrates says. It’s not worth living because it it is not by choice.

Debra Maldonado 29:40

Can I ask you a question? Do you think that as we’re talking about this made me realize that destiny the big picture, Destiny is actually the fuel for us to awaken? Because we have this it’s like almost we have this gift that’s not being used or expression that it’s like that soulful purpose. If we go through our karma and conditioning, it’s almost like the opposing force. And so it’s that divine love the term someone called it divine discomfort. It creates that discomfort that something’s wrong. And we think it’s something’s wrong with us, like, Oh, I’m doing a bad job of creating my life. I didn’t you know, follow the steps that Debbie and Rob said or some other teacher said about manifesting and I’m doing it wrong or you know, all those things instead of that discomfort is that you should have your life’s joy you should have that power. And that just discomfort of not getting it is a is kind of a signal that there’s there’s something inside of you, pushing you.

Robert Maldonado 30:45

Yeah, it’s like those robots in Westworld. Yes. When they were say there’s something wrong with this world. Yeah, right. They sense that there was something off and it for us pain, the pain struggle that we feel in, in acting in the world, and the suffering that we see. That’s, excuse me, that’s a sure sign that something is wrong in the world. And that we need to not not necessarily fix it out there yet. And of course, we take action. But first we have to fix or we have to look at our own self. Right to, to enlighten our own mind, because that’s really where it’s happening. It’s not necessarily happening in out there somewhere in the world. It’s presenting itself to us so that we can do our internal work.

Debra Maldonado 31:42

It’s like a reflection of our unconscious that we can’t see every resistance, every setback, even every good thing that happens and if we get too attached to it, also, so we, we tend to, you know, look to the world to feel happiness and that’s, so you feel this discomfort. And you think, well, this has happened to us for we’ve been working together for 17 years, 15 years. And what I noticed is that a lot of women would come to us when we first started out with love, and they were feeling this, like, desire for love, you know, I went to my partner, and it was painful. I know, for me, that’s how it started. I was so pissed off that I wasn’t married with kids by the time I was 25. And I was trying to, you know, be happy and fit in. And it was almost like compelled by society, like my family, every you know, a successful woman is married with children, you know, that’s not that’s what defines you.

Robert Maldonado 32:45

Jersey called.

Debra Maldonado 32:46

New Jersey culture. And, and I think that what happened to me was that when I found out it was pushing me it wasn’t about me finding a man, it was me finding myself first and I know that a lot of women that we worked with, will first come to us for love. And then they’re really I was looking for a man, but I was finding myself and then they found their purpose. And so sometimes this the fear of, you know, or the struggle of finding or reaching these human goals are leading us to our purpose. And then then we can, it’s there to to weaken us. So we have to embrace the struggles not go you know, not create them, but we want to not have such a harsh avoidance of them or judgment on ourselves. When we’re going through a struggle we have to have like, just like the person who injures us or perceives injures us we have compassion for their ignorance. We have to have compassion for our own ignorance that we didn’t know better. We you know, we didn’t knowingly create this. This situation we it was unconscious. And until we broke out of it, we don’t we don’t have the opportunity to free ourselves from it. Right?

Robert Maldonado 34:01

Yeah. I recently read something by Khalil Gibran.

Debra Maldonado 34:07

The Prophet. Oh, yes.

Robert Maldonado 34:09

He says, I read that God said, Love your enemy. So I loved myself. Because that’s really what we’re struggling with. We’re struggling with our own mind. In essence.

Debra Maldonado 34:25

We’re fighting ourselves, but it feels like we’re fighting forces out there. But we’re really it’s the battle is going on internally. It’s just played out externally. And then the battle for our fate.

Robert Maldonado 34:36

Yeah. So self compassion is the path.

Debra Maldonado 34:40

Self compassion and, and so, let’s talk about how do we make the unconscious conscious? Oh, here’s a little quote I wanted to read. This is from Jung “Things still happen to you. You have a certain fate which is not welcome, which disturbs you or situation. Arise where you assume that somebody has worked against you. But you’re more able to say in so many cases. I’ve seen that I was my so called enemy, that I was the wise fellow who prepared such a fix for myself, that probably in this case, I have worked the same trick. I really don’t understand it yet. There really still seems to be something against you. But you’re so impressed by your former experiences, that you apply a new hypothesis and you slowly arrive at the idea that probably nothing in human life is just against it, that the whole thing has probably been a carefully worked out plan.” So the things the resistance in our life are part of the process. You know, there’s this demonization of resistance and that everyone needs to be in the flow. And if you’re doing it right, if you’re manifesting, right, if you’re higher vibration, and these things are lower, They’re there. They’re in the way and you’re doing it wrong. And I know for me, it’s been always such a harsh judgment. I don’t do it right. And I know a lot of women I work with and men I’ve worked with, they feel stuck because there’s such a harsh judgment of themselves that I should have known better, I should have done better. Let’s talk about someone who has a relationship that didn’t work out, and they’re constantly obsessing over what they did wrong and thinking if I was more evolved, or if I was smarter, or if I, maybe I, you know, I didn’t, you know, I ruined my chances. What would you say to that person?

Robert Maldonado 36:37

Well, that’s me, you’re describing me. Let me tell you what I do.

Debra Maldonado 36:41


Robert Maldonado 36:44

You know, that we, we make so many mistakes in life. I mean, it’s, it literally it’s one mistake after another because we’re always growing and we’re always evolving. And so the the choices that we make last year, are really wrong and then by the standards that we have now. So guilt, it’s an important emotion that tells us, you need to change your perception of the way you relate to others, or you need to evolve the way you’re relating to others. So it’s a useful tool, but often we read it as I’m bad, or I did something terrible, and therefore I’m bad. And it turns to shame and do yeah, that.

Debra Maldonado 37:36

Well, guilt is what I did was bad and shame is now I am bad.

Robert Maldonado 37:39

Right. And that’s not useful. It doesn’t lead us anywhere. It just kind of creates that, you know, non compassion towards ourselves. So we have to understand the nature of the mind, right that, yes, just like our we have a body, we have a mind and it’s actually a mind body. There. But but let’s just for the, for the purposes of simplicity. We know we’re not our bodies we know but that we ride this body or that we inhabit this body.

Debra Maldonado 38:12

That’s the vessel ship.

Robert Maldonado 38:13

Yeah, exactly. So the the mind is very similar. A we have a mind, but it’s not us. Our mind helps us react to the world and interact with others and this whole experience.

Debra Maldonado 38:28

It’s like a function of interpretation, but it’s not who we are.

Robert Maldonado 38:32

It’s not who we are. And once we learn that, then we can work with those difficult emotions in a much clearer way. Instead of getting caught up in mired in them. We’re able to use them to learn.

Debra Maldonado 38:47

And everything really, I think we all struggle with this beginning socially, it’s like there’s a lot of social like, why did I do? Why didn’t I do this? Why did I do that? Did I hurt that person’s feelings, they hurt my feelings. And there’s all this kind of guilt and shame about interaction and relationships and and I think that we have to realize that we’re all kind of messy with each other. I mean, we are always acting the best we can at any time. And that compassion for ourselves is so, so important. And I think it comes first before if you can’t have compassion for others, you can actually try that would be you know, a good step is just to see people you know, have compassion, but you have to put the oxygen mask on your mask first before you help others.

Robert Maldonado 39:35

Right. So if we’re not the, the body and we’re not the mind, then the question is, who are we and the Upanishads state very clearly. You are that pure awareness. It’s there. Like if you ask, well, who is aware of my mind because I am aware of my suffering and I’m aware of my guilt, and I’m aware of what I did. But who is the one that is aware? That pure consciousness, that pure awareness. That’s who you really are. And once you start to understand that and realize it, like I said, it’s not an intellectual understanding and you’re done. It’s a practice, it’s a way of experiencing yourself, then you’re on the right track, then you can work with difficult emotions and not get caught up in them. And you can understand other people’s behavior as well towards you, in that kind of non attached context.

Debra Maldonado 40:34

Someone was mentioning the matrix movies about Neo and Mr. Smith, that they’re each other’s shadows. But I see that I would see it I don’t know what you think. But I would see Mr. Smith being the the ego and Neo being the divine, you know, he took the pill, and he wasn’t a thread until he took woke up. And so the egos like constantly trying it’s the resistance to, you know, living the destiny and so but in that he learned a lot about himself, he mastered a lot of things. So that means it’s almost like we need that resistance to show up.

Robert Maldonado 41:12

Yeah, it’s the way to experience the world. If we let’s say we expect perfection, then there would be nothing, yeah, there would be nothing created because then it would be like a completely stable system, where nothing disturbs it and nothing happens. That has to be drama. Yeah, you know, in order to be change in evolution and form.

Debra Maldonado 41:39

At the end, though, they said did Neo and Mr. Smith merged? And so it’s not that they destroy each other. But then the ego submitted to the divine. Yeah. So if you think about the ego is always trying to fight the destiny. It’s always saying no, no I know you’re not supposed to do this artistic work you’re not supposed to leave your your paycheck in and do what you love. You’re not supposed to have true love. It’s too scary. Like, you’re supposed to stay in your little pattern. And and then what happens is the divine in us as we become more aware of our bringing it to consciousness, the divine has a bigger place in our life. And the the ego is, is now is basically taking it. It’s taking the ride as a passenger versus the Yeah. And so it’s the union that’s what Yoga is actually the union of the Divine and the ego.

Robert Maldonado 42:39

A part of it Yes, yes part of it. But looking at the bigger picture is that the the Atman which is kind of like the individual soul is united with the Brahman the the eternal, universal, infinite mind. pure consciousness, pure awareness.

Debra Maldonado 42:59

Yeah, and who would Morphio? What What do you think his role was?

Robert Maldonado 43:05

Morpheus Morpheus, he is a trickster. In in the bigger mythology, the trickster always plays kind of the instigator. He’s, he’s kind of goading people to, to interact and challenge each other. But in reality he he’s the creative principal. Hmm. Right. He’s, he’s playing with the opposites.

Debra Maldonado 43:34

And like, I think the trickster does take the form of waking you up. And so he gave the pills. And yeah, it was like a trickster. Like you can stay where you are, or you can go. And so I think if you look at those the red pill and blue pill metaphor, we’ll go with a matrix analogy here. It’s that every opportunity every time we hit that resistance or challenge in our life, it’s a chance for us to say Do we want to react the same way or do we want to wake up, do we want to see, stop feeling like the victim and of life and fate? And say, let me see what this is showing me about my mind. And where’s my resistance? Why? Why is this showing up for me? And it’s an opportunity for me to free myself. And that’s where choice comes in. So really Jung says that until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will think it’s fate.

Robert Maldonado 44:25

You would call it fate, unfortunately, and that’s another that’s a whole other conversation right? Then there is this unconscious mind going on?

Debra Maldonado 44:35


Robert Maldonado 44:36

In our conversation we could say that’s the karmic imprint. Yeah. But most of the time, we’re not really conscious of it. But it’s compelling us to act. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna explains very clearly, that if we are not conscious of our karmic conditioning forces us to act like you don’t have a choice, you will see your hand moving and doing things that even your own mind says stop. Don’t do that.

Debra Maldonado 45:09

Oh, I’ve done that a lot. Don’t call him Don’t call him. I call him back.

Robert Maldonado 45:15

Yeah, your body is forced to act.

Debra Maldonado 45:19

It’s like, have you ever been, you know, like, in an argument with someone and you just always have to have the last word and you’re always like, poking at you know, keep poking. And it’s like, why can’t I why don’t I just let it go You know, things that like when you fight with your friends and and so that’s the that’s the goal is to every every resistance every upset is there for us and I love that things that disturb you are there to wake you up and and say it’s time like to live out your purpose. And I think what happens is that what happened with our work is that a lot of women would come to us for love, they would do the Shadow Work, and they would work through this. You know, they had the You call it like this, this beginners are and like, I’m just gonna find the love of my life. And then just because they want to get married or they don’t want to be alone anymore, and you know, they want to have that experience, and then they realize, oh, through that they’re realizing their bigger purpose. Now, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have love. But it also means that I want love, but I also want so much more like there’s so much more available to me. One of my very first clients, she Carissa we went, I did her wedding, I officiated her wedding back in Denver. And she first came to me for childbirth. And then she realized, like, the impact it has on our body. We worked on success, and then she realized the impact, you know, the mind has on what her success is. And then she said, Oh, I have to she found her soulmate, her husband, they think it’s 14 years they’ve been married now. And she said I feel like we’re you know, this is working with the unconscious is the key to everything. And so she then found her purpose and now She does, you know, work like we do. And it’s so amazing that these little things in life, whatever your goal is, is is placed there the resistance the the things that aren’t showing up for you. And then the desire is kind of almost like working for you the obstacles to lead you to something bigger. So it’s okay to want love It’s okay to want money. It’s okay to be successful and be thin or healthy or whatever your your challenge you’re up to. But you use those challenges to grow. And then that will lead you to something even bigger than you could imagine.

Robert Maldonado 47:38

Your destiny.

Debra Maldonado 47:39

Your destiny.

Robert Maldonado 47:40

Your true destiny.

Debra Maldonado 47:41

Yes, I always think of that. That movie. Young Frankenstein, saying destiny destiny. It’s kind of funny if you know that movie. It’s he was supposed to play out his father’s role or uncle’s role. Anyway, let’s go to questions. So one of the questions that we have in the group is let’s see if there’s anything here. You know, before I asked what was the questions and someone said, What about past lives? How does that affect our karma? So how are fate? What would you say? Yeah, big question.

Robert Maldonado 48:20

I love that question. It’s an interesting question.

Debra Maldonado 48:23

It’s always something we think about too.

Robert Maldonado 48:25

But we have to start with what’s going on here? Right? Because we can’t really understand past lives if we don’t understand this life. That’s true. Now, we don’t want to avoid the question we want to examine that but first, like, it’s like a mathematical formula. You have to have the basis, the basic digits first and then the right numbers and the right formula. Then you can look at how it plays out. So we’re not even too sure there’s an ego right to to reincarnate. We know there’s an, let’s say, as individuals that were experiencing this life as an individual. But again, if we look at what is an individual made up of this body, his mind, which are not really, let’s say our true self, they are. It’s like a chariot that we’re riding. So, is that what you mean by reincarnation that that this this individual identity is going to be passed on into some future or comes from some infinite past? And so the the nature of this reality, at its foundation is consciousness. Not the body, not the mind, which are

Debra Maldonado 50:02

Which a lot of times reincarnation is interpreted as you’re going from one body to the next. Right, like our materialistic

Robert Maldonado 50:11

Right, but the identity is often tagged to the individual personality.

Debra Maldonado 50:17

Yeah, which is the ego.

Robert Maldonado 50:18

Right. That so many people mean that the personality is going to reincarnate. But the personality, as we know it is essentially a manifestation of a temporary mental manifestation of the individual, body, mind, Or mind, body. And so the mind body we know dissolves at the time of death. And that’s a materialistic interpretation. The consciousness interpretation is that a mind body does exist, but it exists in a dream like state. It’s very much like a dream it in what we call our waking reality. It does have different laws and principles. It’s not like, like when we dream at night, I it’s a little bit more solid or feels a little bit more solid. But in essence, it is like a dream because it it disappears. It doesn’t last eternally like,

Debra Maldonado 51:23

Well, even at night, like do we disappear? We go out for eight hours and we come back.

Robert Maldonado 51:28

Yes. And so when we talk about reincarnation, we have to take that into consideration that the Upanishads were talking about a conscious universe, not a physical one where you embody these, these by these mind bodies like a chariot, like a physical chariot. Essentially, it’s the other way around. There is a consciousness from which everything arises. So everything is happening. This physical experience that we’re having is happening in consciousness at the same time.

Debra Maldonado 52:06

Yeah, it’s like, there is no past or future. It’s all happening. There’s only now. Yes. And then what we’re pulling in is our individual experience of the now.

Robert Maldonado 52:17

Yes. So let’s say if you’re thinking about past experiences, it would be like a past dream. So it would be very much like during the night, you have several dreams. So you’re in a dream and you’re one person, and then that dream ends and another dream begins and you you might be in a different situation and play out different things that would be more akin to what’s happening in the in, in this waking reality as well. That we’re going from dream to dream, and that that would be a form of reincarnation.

Debra Maldonado 52:55

And so then what would fate How would fate play a role in that?

Robert Maldonado 53:01

The the consciousness, the individual consciousness or what’s called the Atman or the Jeeva is essentially learning through the process of Dream to Dream.

Debra Maldonado 53:15

From dream to dream.

Robert Maldonado 53:15

From dream to dream, you’re becoming more aware.

Debra Maldonado 53:19

So in a way, that’s the life that you that you’re, it feels like a life. But it’s kind of not what we think of life is like just a solid experience like it’s happening not only in a physical experience, but also a psychic experience.

Robert Maldonado 53:36

It’s only happening at a psychic experience.

Debra Maldonado 53:39

But it appears physical.

Robert Maldonado 53:40

It appears to be a physical experience. That’s a good way to think about it. It appears to be a material experience. But that’s the dream.

Debra Maldonado 53:51

And here’s the thing if you believe that you’re having a certain fate, because you heard someone told you it was a past life thing or you you believe that. That will be your reality. So you’re actually what you believe your philosophy will be played out in the world. So if you believe you are really mad at something you did, or regret, and you say, I’m going to be punished for it, that’s what’s going to happen. It’s not like some other forces doing it. So we have to think about that we’re all we are creating our reality and you know, either consciously or unconsciously, and we’re part of God, we’re part of that divine, divine energy that we call God universe. And we’re connected to that. So it’s not separate that there’s a separate entity telling us what to do. We’re kind of in it. So it’s a we are we are it which is hard to believe it feels like blasphemy to say that be the light to the darkness. We’re all born as light it’s about not having covered it up and letting it shine. Yes. I appreciate your solidarity with people with African descent. radical, radicalize people. Yeah. You know, I think too, I think, you know, in the world, I mean, we’ve all had this racial kind of, I mean, since we were, like, throughout history, just kind of a lot of different peoples different races were, you know, had a lot of struggle. And I think that it’s thinking about it from the ego perspective of ignorance of, I can only like people that look like me or act like me or pray like me. And that’s where all the worst start is that kind of unconscious assumption. And I think what’s happening now in the world is that we’re breaking our karma where we’re, or fate is changing, and it takes everyone to awaken. But I think it’s more important than just going and parading and I think that’s very important to show your voices. But the most powerful thing you can do is shift in your mind. from a place of empowerment, you know, work with your own projects. And all those things and I think that’s really important too. And of course treat people with love. I mean, that’s the golden rule always applies.

Robert Maldonado 56:09

Somebody had also asked about

Debra Maldonado 56:13

Astrology? Astrology. Yes. Yeah. So how does this yeah that’s a there’s a couple more questions to what is my body but let’s talk about astrology for a minute because a lot of people this you know tell me that you know they had their astrology chart read and you know, they told me I wasn’t going to meet someone for another two years and I can’t you know, is that true and can I get my locked into that? And so, you know, Jung studied astrology and he had his own kind of opinion on it or his theory on it.

Robert Maldonado 56:47

Yeah, and there’s a rich tradition in, in Hinduism also, astrological

Debra Maldonado 56:55

Vedic astrology.

Robert Maldonado 56:56

Vedic astrology.

Debra Maldonado 56:57

And it is if we think about the planets in the stars. I mean, they’re, they’re part of our consciousness. So we are connected to them. So there is it’s not that it’s defunct. But

Robert Maldonado 57:09

Yeah, again, if we see it as a material universe, then we would be falling into determinism. Yes. According to the time and place you were born, and the position of the stars, that’s going to be your fate. You’re locked into that destiny because of your astrological kind of coincidence of time and space. Again, if it is your conscious universe as the upunishads explain that, that’s a very different interpretation. Now, there is no separateness from you and the stars. And there’s an actual verse in the Upanishads that says, you see that sun, which is a star in the sky. It’s identical to You know, you are that and he is you. And so everything we’re experiencing, including the far off distant stars and galaxies, they are our ourselves, we are it is the self. And so when you understand or look at astrology, from their perspective, it’s talking about a very different process. It is understanding the Universal Mind and how it’s operating.

Debra Maldonado 58:29

Yeah, I think people use it as a divination of When am I going to find money? When am I gonna find love and, and those are like kind of smaller, smaller of the faded tasks more determined by our feet and our our, you know, karma. And then I would say the astrology is more the big picture like forces that were connected to that you know, sometimes we feel more there’s more energy here or not, would you say is more of like a broader picture Then, you know, because you’re born on the state everyone with this son, then you can only meet your soulmate within this time frame. And a lot of people like I just want to hope people use it in a very constructive way versus a way to kind of with fear, and I got to get things accomplished, because that’s what you know, my chart says, and so we want to kind of use it, but also be open to the choice. And if we think if everything’s pre determined, then why are we here? We’re just robots on a train, you know, like just living it out. So we do have choice. Within that.

Robert Maldonado 59:36

Yeah, Jung use the I Ching a lot. We’ve used it a couple of times. for several years. But it is very much of a way of seeing our own unconscious mind the unconscious patterns that play out in the universe. We know for even for in physics, the universe has a self organizing principle. There is no randomness. Everything tends to take shape and pattern and form. You cannot create, like absolute chaos, there’s always a balance of chaos and order.

Debra Maldonado 60:12

And there are times that seemed more energetically aligned for you and not and that’s really what it serves, but I wouldn’t think of it as more like your it’s a hardcore destiny that you can’t escape from it. There’s no power in what you can create. And I think most people that really do study it, don’t think of it in that hard way. But I think a lot of people that are not as it, you know, kind of use it for their own, like, you know, you know, personal needs and they’re not kind of seeing it from the big picture. They they kind of can use it as more of a superstition.

Robert Maldonado 60:51

Yeah, well, those tendencies run throughout the whole gamut. Even in science. There’s a positive rationalism which says, We might not understand everything. But if we work at it long enough, we’ll get to understand everything. You know, that’s very positive. It’s very rationalistic. And if we don’t, it’s probably not the truth. There’s always some mystery, something to know. Because as the upunishads explain, what we’re seeing is Maya. It’s a type of dance of movement that’s always morphing and changing and shifting. And really what we experience is is based on our own assumptions are What’s there? Yes, it reflects back to us what we think is there so we think, yeah, we’re pre determined to live out this, this pattern and we’re going to, you know, to, to experience this kind of fate. Maybe you will, you probably will be locked into that pattern because you believe it.

Debra Maldonado 61:58

Yeah, it’s interesting. How that that happens. Okay. What is meant by mind body is a connection between our mind and our body?

Robert Maldonado 62:08

Yeah, in the West, the mind was separated from the body in kind of the scientific model. Because you cannot touch and and measure the mind like you can the body right you can dissect the body and measure the brain and weigh it and look at how it’s interconnected and all that. But they said well the mind what about the mind you know, not not the the actual neurons but the the memories that we store and the meaning that we give and ascribe to those experiences that we can’t see it? We can’t touch it. It exists though. We know it exists. Like if somebody asks you do you exist? Yeah, I exist. I know. I exist.

Debra Maldonado 63:00

You can’t separate the mind from the body.

Robert Maldonado 63:02

Yeah and so that mind, according to Descartes, was separate from the physical body. And since then, it’s operated on the under that assumption that the mind and the body are two separate things. That’s why you when you go to the doctor, they don’t ask you that much about, you know, what does this mean to you? Or what’s going on emotionally, they just look at you as a physical machine.

Debra Maldonado 63:32

Although I think now I think they’re starting to see how stress has impacted your health. So the last few, you know, have they had any stressors in your life lately and those kind of things, I think.

Robert Maldonado 63:42

But let’s say in the overall model, is, let’s throw some chemicals at it or let’s cut it out, you know, very kind of a very mechanical. So the mind body idea, kind of resurfaced. Maybe The 70s or 80s. People like Candace Pert started to write the molecules of emotion and those kind of things where we started to see that consciousness was really operating continuously throughout the whole body. And the body was speaking back to the mind. In oneness. Yeah, not as two separate ideas, or principles. But all together. So if you think you are sick, you might get sick, you might feel sick, right? And if, if the thought persists long enough, you’re giving your body strong messages that you’re sick and ill, and therefore you become ill.

Debra Maldonado 64:42

You know, it’s so funny when I used to do energy work. And my friend Steve, you know, Lori’s husband always used to make fun of me that I was into all this weird stuff. And he was like, very, very conservative. And he said, You know, there is something though to that mind stuff. He said, at work when time we just had an expression We all three of us decided to tell one guy, are you sure you’re feeling okay? And they all like at separate times asked him. And then at the end of the day that guy’s like, I feel like I’m not feeling okay. And he’s like, it’s interesting how you can really impact someone by your words and suggestions. And so it’s really and when I was doing medical hypnotherapy, it was all about like, telling the body it’s healing and it’s, you know, getting better and then the body would react to it. So very interesting. But that’s another whole topic and we’ll probably do another retreat on mind body to so let’s see. It’s so hard to break those patterns. I’m having more peace and clarity in recent months toward my purpose, but I still feel like I can’t completely break free of the bubble of my ancestral past and conditioning from society and my parents, especially my mother, I want to change things in my life and I’m taking little steps but always felt that something seems to be holding me back. I feel like a mother figures in my life who represents the qualities Am I seeking I don’t think I could see the whole thing. But here’s the thing. What keeps people stuck the most is wanting to get away from the pattern. So I, I think what’s happening is you’re getting conscious of it, but you’re pushing it away, which keep keeps it in the shadow. So it’s, I want to get rid of the pattern. And so instead of pushing away and wanting to be free of the ancestral past you I mean, that’s a great intention, but you don’t do it by pushing it away. You do it by saying, you know, how can I integrate this? How can I, I understand this, but not buy into it and not be afraid of it. It’s like, if your whole family was poor, and you’re trying to be rich, you’re just pushing away the poverty all the time, and it’s gonna keep catching up with you. It’s gonna keep showing up. There’s actually a movie about that. Oh, the greatest showmen. He was born very poor and he wanted he was like, wanting to be successful make something of itself because the woman he loved was wealthy, but he kept runing is like having bankruptcies over and over, because it was something he resisted, and no matter how much money he had, people still judged him as a common man or he was self made. He wasn’t like a, you know, part of the aristocrats and, you know, that kind of battling that is always going to come back. So, when we talk about working with your fate, it’s very important to know that we’re not pushing away something that we’re not rejecting something we’re actually how do we, how do we accept, have more acceptance around non judgement around those, that conditioning? What is it inside emotionally? That is so repulsive about it? Because that’s what keeps us hooked and that’s why we do the emotional wisdom is is to get into that emotional hook around it.

Robert Maldonado 67:43

Yeah. Yeah, it’s good. Good plan.

Debra Maldonado 67:50

Right now, like twins can have completely different lives and personalities. There’s clearly more to it than astrology. Yeah.

Robert Maldonado 67:57

And genetic. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado 68:02

Ask if there’s new content and the retreat aligning with the one and engaged in the year. Yes, this is completely. I mean, we’re still going to talk about like the shadow self. But we it’s a completely new we, we did this retreat actually live in January in Austin. And we were going to do one in London last a couple weeks ago. But that didn’t happen. So we’re thinking we want to keep teaching this because the people that attended, we thought it was amazing. And many of the people that attended had been doing our work for many, many years, like seven years, 767 years. So they’ve seen everything that we’ve done, and this is completely new. So yes. One of the courses I explained a dream and Dr. Rob told me that the key was the integration of the mother archetype. At that moment I didn’t understand, but after cultivating a great relationship with my animus three weeks ago, my mom has appeared twice in my dreams last time smiling.

Robert Maldonado 68:58

That’s good sign.

Debra Maldonado 68:59


Robert Maldonado 68:59

There’s integration.

Debra Maldonado 69:00

Yeah. And yeah, it’s like even though you can look at on a logical level and say, you know, that person did acted bad or that, you know, my mom did it was critical. It’s you throw her away, you’re just you’re just giving her that that idea more power. And what we want to do to have choices to not let it shoot like we were talking about earlier you and I about like for me I always have to deal with the pleasing I have to please everyone because I’m afraid of getting anyone mad. It’s my mother I got. But if I go into the opposite extreme and reject the pleasing or reject, not pleasing, you know, and create, you’re still creating something against something else. Like you’re still dealing with that opposite. You’re still kind of, I call it rearranging the furniture, you’re just flipping it, but you’re not really coming to terms with the duality of both and seeing that pleasing and not pleasing are actually neutral. Like how do how they can they go together. And how can you actually care for others without the ego, ego attachment to getting them to like you? And that’s really the, the key. And we’re always constantly growing. So it’s fun. And let’s see any more questions before we go?

Robert Maldonado 70:20

Well, thanks for hanging out.

Debra Maldonado 70:21

An extra a long session today. I knew we just were talking about it as so much to cover. But I do want to leave you with this is that Jung says you are not what happened to you. You’re free to create your life. And that’s the bottom line is that we do have a destiny. It’s our duty to find out what are unique gifts and spiritual gifts and social gifts or talents that we have and to express this in the world. But also, it’s our duty to become free of our conditioning in that not everyone takes that role. Some people take it some people don’t. And that’s really where true Joy is. It’s not an achieving the human things in life, which are very wonderful. But it’s about being free to choose it is really where the true joy is. Yeah. Yeah, at the end of the day.

Robert Maldonado 71:14

Freedom is doing our own internal work from our own mind, then we’re really choosing our destiny. Otherwise we play out those patterns that people call karma, conditioning, fate.

Debra Maldonado 71:40

One question is for all that are not from the states can we attend? We can attend live Yes, the times will be 9am. Eastern, I mean, no new noon Eastern, too. So it’ll go all day to like eight o’clock eastern, or seven o’clock eastern. So it’ll be for us 9am Pacific. So four o’clock ish, Pacific, so most people that are in Europe will be able to you can attend the whole time. I think maybe later, it might go into the night for you a little bit. But we try to start early. I mean, we’re in the Pacific coast. So nine o’clock is early enough for us, we will have a break, we’ll be three hour segment nine to 12. And then we’ll have a break. So you have an hour to kind of cool down, we’re going to down some tea, have some tea, have a glass of wine if you want to? Well, we hope you know we don’t encourage drinking during the work, but you know, you gotta do we gotta do. And then the afternoon will be another three hours and then we’ll come the next day and there’ll be a three hour segment and a three hour segment. We’ll even take maybe a little you know, five minute break, you know, so you can not miss anything. And then also too, you don’t have to you can be anonymous. You don’t have to be on video. You could, you know, just come on what do you do and you have to have a name you could put you know Option one, as your name, sleepless Sleepless in Seattle. And then there’ll be a chance for you to ask us questions, so you can raise your hand. And if online, you can actually use your computer audio to ask us a question so we can interact, or you can type it in the chat if you’re too shy. And we’ll probably have a couple volunteers to do, you know, kind of work with so everyone can see how to work with it. It’s very interactive, and it’s gonna be really fun. It’s gonna be like, you’re with us, but distantly. It’ll still have the same energy and love that we always bring.

Robert Maldonado 73:36

That’s right. It’s a conscious universe. We’re all in the same room.

Debra Maldonado 73:39

Yes. And we will we are limiting it to 30 people because we want to make sure everyone can get their questions answered. And we it’s a very intimate, deep work. So we want to make sure everyone gets what they need. And if we had too many people, you’re not going to have that intimate experience. And we that’s something we value. So. So we’ll tell you if it’s sold out. Once it sells out, but I’ll send I’ll put the post the link here and that we will hopefully see a lot of you there. I like that you focus on creating destiny through true self higher consciousness. Thank you. Yes. That’s the only way to create not from the ego.

Robert Maldonado 74:16

Yes. So stay well, thanks for hanging out with us. And thanks for the great questions and great great feedback.

Debra Maldonado 74:24

And our and again, let’s end with the the world let’s hold the world and it’s it’s becoming, you know, one of the things that Swami Vivekananda, one of our teachers that we read a lot from, he’s no longer with us. But he came in the 1800s to the US and traveled around. He said that the world is perfect, but not complete. And so even as things play out right now, and it feels scary to some people, that we have to remember that it’s not complete, we’re constantly becoming and so when you look at the world or look at your fate, as fixed, you don’t give yourself space. In room and so if all of us going home, leaving this today, if we can hold a vision of the world that we want to be in, that we want to live in, we see people, I want you to stop looking at all the violence and look at all the coming together, fill your mind with all the good that’s happening. It might not be shown on the news a lot, but feel good if you can’t focus on it, you know, on the news or online, just imagine it imagine the world you’d like to be in. And, you know, maybe play some John Lennon and, and see us all really coming together and and awakening others, but we have to do the work ourselves. And the more we do it ourselves, we’re actually it’s a ripple effect. It’s affecting everyone. The less anger we have in our heart. The more we deal with our anger or guilt or shame, the less it ripples out into the world and it’s a beautiful thing that we can do for others and, and there’s something we can do right now here today is to hold that vision and if that’s all you do today, you’ve done your part All right. Take care everyone. We love you. Take care. Bye bye