Love and the Career Woman Archetype

Rob:   0:28
Good. How are you doing?

Debra:   0:29
I’m good. I’m asking them how they are. How are you?

Rob:   0:33
I’m doing well. Thank you.

Debra:   0:34
We have another great podcast today, and today we’re talking about the fear of intimacy or

Rob:   0:41
into me. I see as the love gurus.

Debra:   0:44
And most people that have the fear of intimacy actually don’t realize they have the fear intimacy. So we’re going to answer a question that’s very common. A lot of our clients will ask me. I have everything going for me. I have this great career. I have, you know, have a house. I’m financially stable. I’m attractive. Almost 40 or just turned 40 or I’m in my you know,

Rob:   1:12
I’m a good person.

Debra:   1:13
I’m a good person. People tell me I’m attractive. I’m thin. You know, all these things that everyone thinks is perfect for them on the surface. And they say, But I go online or I go in social events, and I never meet anyone. I don’t need anyone. No one shows up where if they do show up, they’re gonna show up. They don’t ask me out on a date. They text me and we exchange, and then they kind of disappear and nothing ever really gels. And, um and then the people that are interested, they’re not interested in And the people that, uh, that they like, they feel that are not responding to them.

Rob:   1:52
So what you’re saying is that they got for them, but they’re not getting any response from the world, right? No dates. Now, you’ve been doing some research on kind of the professional woman, the Amazon, if you will, in mythology, this this character who really represents Ah, what the modern woman is today. Yes, She’s kind of in charge of her own life. She doesn’t need a man, but of course, like every human being, she needs love. Yes, attention.

Debra:   2:29
She wants love. Um, And so according to you know, we we teach Jungian psychology, and Tony Wolf, back in the early 19 hundreds, came up with this idea of the four types for women that women fall into, and it’s more of a default that we have. We call it the love default persona that people fall into. And they it’s based on their experience when they were younger, their influence on their their what they how they saw their mother’s role and what role the a woman decided to take in their life. And therefore of them. There’s the mother wife. There’s the lover, the mistress wth e un unattached woman. There is the professional woman. And then there’s the mystical woman, the the intuitive and spiritually woman. And so we all have all four of them. But by default, we approach love through one predominantly,

Rob:   3:30
right. Can I ask you something? Because you brought up something really interesting. And that is the controversial Tony Wolf?

Debra:   3:38
Yes. Let’s talk about her. I

Rob:   3:40
don’t know that much about her. Despite reading almost everything I can about young Carl Jung. I don’t know that much about Tony Wolf. Can you tell us a little bit about her?

Debra:   3:53
Well, she was his mistress for a little time. He Jung had a lot of mistresses throughout his life. He was married very young Thio Emma Jung, who was I think 19 at the time. When they got married, they had five Children. So Emma Jung for 10 years, basically all she did was bear Children. She was pregnant most of the time, and Jung was really into his work. And so Emma was basically I mean, Tony was basically his muse. So one of his muses and she studied psychology, was a psychologist, and she never got married. And, you know, she really looked at women in their role. And she didn’t take a traditional role, as most women did in her age. In the Victorian times, women got married and they didn’t have careers. And so she found it interesting that she found herself in this mistress role and but a professional role, which was very unique. And then she saw how other women were relating.

Rob:   4:50
So she she was a student of Jung’s. She was

Debra:   4:53
a client, actually, and then became a lover and then became a psychologist on studied. The work studied is yes methods, and then a lot of people think they have this long romance. But it was really a shorter romance, and then longer they ended up being friends. You know, it was more of a friendship and colleagues and, uh, they work together and and am I worked with her, too, And Emma said, you know, she filled a part of me that I couldn’t fulfill for Jung in a way like a Sfar asses like a ah, uh, professional partner. And so it really was a more professional lot of people think it’s so this terrible you no idea of the mistress and this great psychologist, and he needs to be perfect. But it’s interesting. Show her her take on women and feminine psychology. And so anyway, that’s

Rob:   5:44
Yeah, well, remember. Remember when we visited Zurich? We visited Carl Jung’s home and the tour. A guy told us about Tony Wolfgang in the picture, and and I remember she very kind of Ah, he merely said Tony would not eat dinner with family. Yeah, like that was the lying that would try and say, You you guys can work together and do whatever you have to do professionally. But my home is smile.

Debra:   6:22
And then Emma eventually ended up studying. They hired a to tutor. She wasn’t professionally educated, are educated because back in the day, those days ah, women weren’t educated if you had money, which is weird. If you didn’t have, if you had money, you didn’t need an education because you were just kind of be a wife to someone and you would have the inheritance and there would be no need for a career education. And so she was actually after she had all our kids, she started getting educated and became a psychologist herself and added to the feminine psychology because Jung came from a male perspective. And so I found it very interesting listening and, uh, hearing about Tony and reading about her work. And but I also think that there’s an opportunity for us in the modern era. Era in the in the new millennium were in the twenties now, 100 years later, and women have have changed. The rules have changed, and I think more women are taking on multiple roles of those four archetypes where in the Victorian age they were very, very limited. It’s like you choose your path, you’re going to be a professional. You’re gonna be someone’s mistress, you’re not going to get married or you are going to get married. Another famous person in that lover archetype is Salameh, who was the famous lover of Real K and a muse for many, many, many men. Nietzsche. And so there’s there, says there’s There was a role for women, but it was very rare back in this.

Rob:   7:50
Yeah, So back to Tony was ideas, and she developed her own, ah, psychology of feminism and based on Jung’s model of the site.

Debra:   8:02
Yes, he said yes. She said that the women, the roles they choose, they end up suppressing the other roles, and they don’t express their full self in relationships in their life. And really, truly, what we talk about in Jungian psychology is that you want to bring your whole self to a relationship. You want to be in your whole self to your life. So a lot of women can relate to getting married and giving up their career and having babies. Or, um, we’re not wanting to get tied down. They want to be free to travel. They don’t want the constraints of marriage. Maybe they saw that when they were younger, where they really thought, Well, the only way I can get security is to make my own independence, and that’s ah, the professional

Rob:   8:46
so the professional in in Tony was model essential would represent the modern woman of today

Debra:   8:55
most like most of because not every woman of today has a career. Some, some still, you know their primary career is to be the mother. They they don’t you know, they’re not, um, taking on a roll out in society. They’re kind of running the family, even if they do have a job. I mean, some people have jobs, but it’s not their passion or their what they want to do they. You know, they may work at home, and but their primary role is to be a mom. But for the professional, her primary role, if you lead with that is about success, is about your education, your your passion, your purpose, your your drive so you can have your own. You could be an entrepreneur. You could be like a Sara Blakely that’s a professional like she has. Her life is bigger than just the family, and the family tends to take the back seat to those things, and somebody women can’t balance it all. A lot of women have a conflict with that,

Rob:   9:55
so somebody like Oprah Winfrey s and she would be fall into this category.

Debra:   10:00
Yeah, You know who else, if you think about in history Queen Elizabeth. The first, a lot of what she realized She you know the man she loved was married to another woman. She was He was married to another woman and he also wasn’t a royal, so she couldn’t marry him. And then the men that around her disappointed or she saw how they were just all cheating. And and she was like, Why do I want to give half of my thrown away? I have the power. Why would I want to give that away? So she ended up marrying England. She said, I’m gonna marry you and kept her power. And there’s actually a movie called Mary, Queen of Scots. That’s where Shay, uh, I can’t remember a vote in a remember last name. It’s a beautiful story about this conflict that women have between the professional, the being their independence, and being the married woman and the conflict. And of course, this was back in, you know, the 16 hundreds. But it wasn’t It wasn’t.

Rob:   10:59
So what would be the contemporary equivalent that the woman marries the corporation that

Debra:   11:05
Yes, she marries the corporation. She marries her career. Her her business becomes her spouse. I know a lot of people that are entrepreneurs, and the business is basically their lover. And they end up feeling that if I don’t give all my attention to this lover, and it’s also your baby is your lover, your baby, your partner. And if I don’t give all my attention to this Ah, a relationship you know and bring in our relationship’s gonna mess it up. And so and it may be entrepreneur. Or it could be a corporate world. You know where if you built your security around financial independence. If you’ve said I like this Ah, the lot of our clients say they’re very financially independent. They can travel whenever they want to. They could stay whatever hotel they want to. They can buy whatever house they want. They can buy the clothes they want, they could take care of themselves. And they don’t need a man to, like support them financially and said that they’re afraid, though more of their heart and s Oh, it’s almost like they build a cushion around themselves as this is going to help me stay safe in the world, this big, bad world. I’m going to be independent. And, um And again, this is not a conscious decision. This is what’s going on unconsciously. And the ego tends to want to put us in categories and wanna make things black and white. And if I If I have this, I can’t have that. They’re very little gray area to that. So then we say, Well, okay, so if you’re a professional woman, you’re, uh you know you’re independent. How do I become co dependent are counter dependent with someone else.

Rob:   12:47
It’s a good word,

Debra:   12:48
Goto Bennet, But you know what I mean. It’s intra dependent where you’re bringing someone else in and we hear a client feel of time. It’s gonna mess up my life. This person’s gonna screw everything up. And s o the professional tends to be a perfectionist, and she wants things very much in order. She has herself together. And part of the reason why she has been ableto function that way and excel in business is she’s able to manage her emotional life. She’s able to kind of keep promotions compartmentalized because in the corporate world, that’s basically the bird, you know, men created. That’s how they function. And so they a lot of times they take on the masculine kind of idea that I have to push my emotions away. I gotta stay focused. And then the terror is if I let someone into my heart, it’s going to It’s going to worlds are gonna collide here.

Rob:   13:43
So would you say that the primary complex of the age that we’re living in for women is this conflict between career and family?

Debra:   13:56
If you’re enjoying this conversation and do not want it to end, it doesn’t have to. You can join us on our Facebook fan page at Creative Mind Method and continue the conversation. Get tools free visualizations, free downloads and announcements of live events and new courses that we’re hosting. So join us after the show at Creative Mind Method on Facebook. See there. I think that, um, the people aren’t conscious of it because a lot of the women I work with definitely want love and marriage. They’re not saying I don’t want love a marriage. I want my career again. This is unconscious. They don’t realize what is happening. So are our teaching always is look at the results in your life. Look att tthe e the fruits of your tree that’s growing in your life. The roots reflect the fruits, and so the roots are are unconscious. And so if you’re not getting results, it’s reflecting back that you on some level, you don’t want that result. And it’s such a hard concept thio to to think about right, it’s that I can’t, um, imagine that I wouldn’t not want a result I like, I really want loved. I’m sorry,

Rob:   15:13
s o The fear of intimacy is is that they’re afraid it will wreck there their careers. Is that what you’re saying? Yes, yes. The primary conflict is that if I let somebody into my heart, they will essentially wreck my opportunities to excel in my career. Yes. Wow, Interesting.

Debra:   15:39
Well, not I don’t even think it’s the career itself. I think it’s more that they can if they lose their if they lose their emotional their ground. You know, there’s like a barrier that’s not letting them feel on a deeper level on. They’re not aware of that. They’re not aware of their deeper feelings, and so they can’t even get to the point where they’re passionate about something or are connecting emotionally, that leaving go on dates, too. And it’ll be a very practical decision. They’ll be like, Well, he doesn’t check off on my list and they’re approaching dating from a very logical, rational standpoint, which is good. But the emotions out is like they don’t allow themselves to feel romantic, and this is generalization. But some qualities is they don’t allow themselves to imagine because they’re afraid of being disappointed. Look at your results and see what those results are telling you. And then the next thing is you want Thio figure out. How do I, um, how do I look? It take responsibility for those results. And how do I, uh, now look with within And how would you say that?

Rob:   16:53
So, let’s say from the psychology of, uh, romantic love level, the woman needs to understand that she’s not the persona, meaning that yes, the persona has allowed her to be successful in the corporate setting, for example. But that love requires, uh, going deeper than the persona. You know, Carl Jung’s that the personas this century a mass that we wear in order to be accepted by the group, my society. But that’s not what we fall in love with and

Debra:   17:36
that she needs to kind of understand her deeper self. That’s right And not the persona that, uh, that you are putting out there that is that you are that, like, I think that we put if you’re so independent, you put so much into being a, um a, um professional and your success and your egos all like tied into that that you’re afraid anything would miss set up. Ah, lot of people, you know, that I’ve seen people who have, you know, got into bad relationships, and they’re ashamed, you know that they let themselves be a fool, and, uh and so that’s like one of the fears. And so the bottom line is, Oh, of course, you have to do individual a shin work, But, uh, the key is to be willing to get your heart broken. You have to be going to you have to get down into the fear of why you’re so afraid. Well, what do you really afraid of? And you may not be conscious of it, so you have to keep going, um, using the techniques that we always talk about to work with your emotions. Yeah, and a lot of people will look at their their experience to say, Well, I don’t feel anything. And so you have to find a way to look at that.

Rob:   18:50
Absolutely. Yes. Oh, what is? Let’s say the bottom line. So you have this internal conflict between career and love. What is the basic approach? Coaching therapy?

Debra:   19:07
Well, it depends. I mean, I think that if you have ah, some kind of personality disorder and you know, you have been diagnosed with something serious, you should go to therapy. But for most people were pretty normal. We can you can actually get a coach to help you. Um ah, Jungian coach, which is what we on our team does to help you go into the unconscious. Because if you just change your dating behavior, if you change your profile, you think well, if I just change my picture or make it look better, you know, change what I write, Maybe I’ll get a different response or change how I act on the date. It’s not. It’s internal. So remember, the external conflict is reflecting an internal conflict. So if you have everything going for you. Pride yourself on being independent. Ask yourself, Are you afraid of like shaking up the emotions? Like, how do you work with your emotions? Do you not like when you get upset, do you not like when other people get upset? Does that make you, um, feel uncomfortable? Ah, a lot of people that are in the corporate world have been conditioned to not allow emotions. Like if there’s an employee or team member that’s dramatic, it tends to like like that’s not appropriate in the corporate world. So s so we have to look at what is your relationship with emotions and how willing are you? Do you d’oh share the deepest parts of yourself with another person without being afraid?

Rob:   20:29
S So the good news is you don’t have to choose between career and love. Now you can certainly be ableto let’s say to work with both. But it does require that looking inward and understanding that maybe what you’re identifying with is not the totality of yourself.

Debra:   20:50
Yes, and really the things that have made you successful, the conditioning, the work ethic, that perfectionism has really played a great role in making you successful That your ego saying, Hey, this is good. Like wire. Do you want to change this? So really, we have to get to What’s the next? Can we bring another element in? Can we bring another person? And can I bring another part of myself forward? It’s really bringing that deeper, soulful, sensual part of yourself forward in a relationship. And, um and is the room in your life for that? Is that Is that scary? Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, everyone for tuning in. We hope to see you on the next podcast. And we will, uh, tell us what you think, and we will see you soon.

Rob:   21:44
See you next time.

Debra:   21:45
Bye bye.